This dialogue is wonderfully refreshing. You two gentlemen demonstrate polite professionalism to a higher than usual degree. I appreciate you both very much, but to cut through to basics, I side with Grahams idealism. In the beginning there was conscious arising out of Mind and bringing forth all that is, quantum void to burst of energy which temporarily congeals into matter, which then “later” reverse’s the flow and returns to the origin only, in this eternal waltz, to begin again. I cannot equate matter and mind. Matter arises out of mind, as does all else. Bohm’s implicate first order is Mind which simply IS, with only itself as its origin. Yes, this is idealism. I see only a hairs difference between you two elegant gentlemen, but it is an important hair.